Some clarifications.
June 6, 2009
I have a few thoughts before I get to my actual post for today: 1. I don’t want to have my page to become a venue for the endless gender debates on comment strings and blogs throughout the evangelical world, for two reasons: a. I want non-Christian friends and family to read this blog without running screaming for the hills and b. I’m not sure that there are any new arguments to be made. When I wrote yesterday, I was not writing about the exegesis of particular passages. I went to Gordon College; I’m in seminary at Regent; I’ve attended two seriously evangelical churches for the bulk of my time as a Christian–I know the arguments, I’m aware of the issues. I know it’s complicated. I also know some people think it’s clear cut, one way or the other. I also am pretty familiar with the Redeemer view, as I used to devour TK’s sermons, and wish I still could, but am finally realizing that you can’t just spend money whenever you feel like it, and I can’t go dropping $30 on a sermon series anymore, no matter how much I want to. However, before I learned to be more fiscally responsible, and while I was getting ready to get married, I DID listen to the marriage sermon. And I’ll say this: it’s the closest I’ve come to accepting the complementarian position. If anyone could have done it, it was Kathy Keller in her talk. But, for me, even though this might sound heretical, as I’m not following this statement with a Bible verse–I just can’t do it. It goes so deeply against my own sense of who I am, the priority of equality, etc. It goes against the argument of my heart, my clear sense of call, and the implications and practical ramifications of carrying these policies out in marriage, church, and societies, that will feel demeaning, whether intended as such or not.
BUT, that’s not what I wanted to write about yesterday at all–what I wanted to write about was the incongruity between cosmopolitan outreach and image and the actuality of adherence to traditional gender roles. It seemed that Keller was so attuned to the relevance of the city–of the opportunities, the diversity, the draw–and yet not attuned to the way it might strike a woman in this kind of context to be able to wield great influence outside of church, and have that affirmed by Redeemer, but then be constrained in church. I am aware that the sacrificial leadership/gracious submission model is not supposed to be domineering, sexist, or unequal, but there is no way around the fact that it is still hierarchical and disenfranchising. Anyway, just wanted to tease out that one particular issue of the PCA city model–in Chicago, New York, Vancouver–that ostensibly reaches out to high-achieving women, and then establishes this inside church/outside church dichotomy. This strikes me as somehow dishonest. I almost give more credibility to Mohler, Duncan, et al who embrace the traditional roles whole-hog (is that an expression?), rather than parsing out the exact arenas where women can or cannot do certain things.
Post Script: I am going to be very careful about approving comments, as I don’t want my comments thread to become an endless argument, and I don’t want to alienate all of the non-Christians in my life.
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1.
lucas damoff | June 6, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Good word. Maybe if a little mutual submission was practiced between complimentarians and egalitarians the Church and the world would benefit a bit more from the discourse. And of course i say this as one who generally identifies more closely with the first group than the second.
love,
luke
2.
Tim Keller | June 9, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Thanks for your thoughts, and the kind words about Kathy’s persuasiveness. She’s great.
Kathy and I have looked at our hearts and motives in this area for a long time, and I’m glad that this post gives me the opportunity to reflect on that again. But at this point I don’t believe we have struck this middle ground out of cowardice, if that is what you mean by ‘dishonesty.’ As you can guess, a middle ground only gets lots of criticism from both sides. There is no position you can take on this subject today that is ’safe’–everyone gets criticized in the strongest terms by somebody else.
I don’t mind you being unconvinced by our arguments (most people in the world are!) But with all due respect–I’m not sure its accurate to say we are not attuned to their impact on people. We’ve had plenty of NYC women reject our view, of course (just like we’ve had plenty reject all kinds of other teachings on Christian beliefs and practices.) But I think that what we have accomplished to some degree is that we’ve developed a church in which people who don’t have our view on gender roles are not made to feel their motives are being assaulted. As a result, we have a spectrum of opinion among us, even though we hold to traditional practice.
I’d hope you find that a good thing. Thanks for listening.
3.
annaandgeorge | June 9, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Hi Tim,
I wrote above, on the blog itself, that you had responded very graciously, and I was honored that you would engage me here, as I have admired you for a long time. Did you just read this post, or did you read the original as well (I am now cringing at the “Anger” title, as I am aware how hostile it may have sounded, when mostly I was just sad)? Anyway, it may be too much to hope for a SECOND response from an intensely busy man (doing so much great work!), but if you do get a chance, could you respond at all to the fact that Redeemer does make people feel comfortable and welcome who disagree in this area (like our friends Jon and Steph Fitzgerald, who I think you know), but you also have some strong associations with people whose churches or organizations are far more dogmatic and inflexible (like Driscoll, Piper, Duncan, Mohler, CBMW, etc)?
Interestingly, I was talking with a friend at school today (Regent in Vancouver), and she said she had taken a class with JI Packer, who is emeritus here, but teaches fairly regularly, and he had been similarly gracious on this issue, saying that it was secondary for him, even though he took the traditional position as well. So, I want to make it clear that I am grateful for people like you and Dr. Packer who make that effort, but still see most high-achieving, non-Christian women friends of mine (including my attorney mother) being utterly put off by reading/hearing some of the stuff coming from CBMW or Mars Hill, such that knowing it was associated in any way with Redeemer would be a huge obstacle to getting any of my NYC friends in the door, even though you guys approach the issue in a more nuanced and unique fashion–AND would be preaching the Word in a way that I think would really floor them. Anyway, I would love a response to the first post, in terms of some of the broader denominational and organizational associations and implications for the Redeemer approach that you mentioned and that I have heard about from Fitz (Jon Fitzgerald). Thanks! But I do completely understand if you are too busy doing substantive work
.
Anna
4.
fitz | June 9, 2009 at 8:37 pm
hey anna, quite a good dialogue you got rolling here. thanks for the shout out. and it means a lot for steph and i as redeemer attenders (and, recently, fellowship group leaders) to see not only that tim responded but that he’s aware we are out there.
i’m so psyched that you’re blogging..keep it up.
5.
Tim Keller | June 10, 2009 at 5:16 am
Anna-Sorry. I didn’t want to make you feel bad at all! I think I did a bit.
I associate with people on both sides of the issue. You say ‘how can you be connected with those folks over there?’ but people to my ‘right’ can be just as bothered that I’m willing to affiliate with people who believe in women’s ordination. I get it from both sides, and I think that goes along with Redeemer’s calling. We don’t want to demonize people who differ with us, and to a great degree that is happening across spectrum. Everybody is deeply offended by everybody else. I guess we are trying to do our small part to change that, and that means we don’t stay away from people because they disagree with us over this.
6.
Wayne Park | June 10, 2009 at 9:05 am
Hey Anna! Couple things…
1. I think you were in my soul of min class winter 09
2. I thought you were from Boston
3. I’m gonna jump in this dialogue as a NYC transplant and as a fellow Regent-ite.
Here’s a ques for you and Dr. Keller:
Regent’s very own (the late) Stan Grenz took a position on gender egalitarianism and once said that all the arguments he heard against it were textual but not necessarily theological. In other words, Scripture may speak explicitly in some areas against women in leadership, but does it not also speak implicitly about moving towards a kingdom vision where there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female… in other words, does not a theology of the kingdom point us in the direction of egalitarianism?
Good stuff Anna…
7.
liz | June 11, 2009 at 3:41 pm
hi dear,
Not excited about you giving A. Mohler et al “more credit” for consistency! The more conservative, the more points he gets?
I”m thinking especially of his Catholic views on contraception, which are less (to my understanding, at least, and in the Reformed slice I grew up in) biblically defensible than a complementarian view.
BUT! I am thrilled to see you engaging these issues with a tone of love and respect. Interesting that people like you & I, and TK, it seems! have relationship and connections to different traditions and indeed get flak from many sides. Keep up the good work.